A 2024 Roundtable Review with Fellow Finches John Ferreira and Lauren Collier

Bill Gullan (00:22):

Greetings one and all and welcome to Champions of Purposeful Change. I’m Bill Gullan, president of Finch Brands, the premier boutique brand consultancy. Happy that you’re with us here we are in December Counting Crows would say “a long December”, but it doesn’t feel that way. It’s been a fast year and in order to cap it off, right, to talk about what’s behind and as well as what’s ahead, I have two of the leading brains at Finch Brands to join us. We’re going a little bit away from the guest route or at least the external guest route. And I have two of my most treasured colleagues, John Ferreira, Chief Insights Officer, and Lauren Collier, Chief Experience Officer. Why don’t you all, I think many of our listeners have heard me allude to you and maybe have met you along the way, but if you guys wouldn’t mind doing intros of yourselves a bit. Just to get us started, John, let’s start with you.

John Fereirra (01:11):

So John Ferreira. I am the Chief Insights Officer here at Finch Brands. Been with Finch for over 11 years and prior to Finch I spent 11 years at Campbell Soup Company as well in a mix of various roles including insights and brand management. And I have a passion for bringing insights forward that can really change and transform brands and businesses. So Finch was really the best fit for me in terms of really being able to help clients deliver those actionable results.

Bill Gullan (01:42):

Excellent, and thank you for spending a few minutes with us today, John and LC. Lauren Collier.

Lauren Collier (01:49):

Hi everybody. Lauren Collier, Chief Experience Officer, coming up on my eighth year at Finch Brands. Prior to Finch, spent a decade at Kimberly Clark, professional leading global strategy and innovation, and then I was the North American Marketing Director for the drinks division at Mars. I am a champion of purposeful change that has always been who I am as a strategist, looking to use insights to come up with new ways of doing things, stretching brands, refreshing brands, identifying product concepts, who our target users are and making sure everything we do is truly actionable and doesn’t ever sit on a shelf.

Bill Gullan (02:29):

Excellent. Thank you Champions of Purposeful Change. All perfect for this podcast and so glad to have you. So here’s what we’re going to do. We have a couple different topics that we’re going to get into and this is really I think going to be focused around what we’re seeing and experiencing in our client work at trade shows and just in our sort of thinking around how the industry evolves and some of the forces that are shaping it. And let’s start with what seems to be on everybody’s mind based on the presentations at various trade shows that we attend, coverage in the media, et cetera. And that is the role of technology that is shaping the insights industry is shaping business and life more generally. And love to hear your guys’ perspectives on in terms of what we do at Finch as well as how insights professionals think about the programs they lead AI and technology in general. What are we seeing? What are we thinking? John, you want to kick us off?

John Fereirra (03:24):

Yeah, love to think about the future, love to geek out and we do see the latest and greatest at all the trade shows as well as across our client base. And I see three big shifts that are underfoot that are going to completely transform the way that insights operates and organizations deliver results. So first would be the return on insights for organizations is really at a point where it’s about to explode in something like an exponential curve over the next decade and it’s starting now. Second would be we’re going to get closer to the truth than ever before. I call that sort of triangulating truth and we can talk a bit more about that. But timeless, elusive answers are now going to finally be within grasp between the combination of the right people, process, team and technology. And then the third would be a new renaissance for old methodologies.

(04:17):

So some old methodologies that maybe have been around for a long time, but when you combine them with how the world is changing with ai, they’re going to dramatically grow in importance. The first one, sort of the return on insights organizations really being at that precipice of hitting exponential increases. There’s always been this pressure to do more with less and the time cycles for research have gotten shorter and shorter. So of all the pressures, agility is the one big one that’s reshaping everything. When I was at Campbell Soup Company and Insights, we would do annual insights plans. Many organizations that’s just not possible anymore. At best, you can plan in a six month window, sometimes three months, sometimes you can’t even do three months because the world is changing so fast and business is moving so fast that you need to plan a tighter windows.

(05:07):

And all this creates natural pressure that pushes you to focus on individual projects. When you focus on individual projects again and again and again, it makes your insights function more transactional and less transformational in its impact because you’re getting specific answers to specific questions. But really what brands need to grow more than ever are these transformational insights and advances in AI are finally putting that within reach where transformational insights can become a muscle within an organization. The biggest philosophical shift around that is away from looking at these studies through their own individual value and more of what is the value of the sum of the parts. So philosophies in the marketplace and progressive organizations are shifting to see the cumulative data that you collect as the asset that’s going to drive proprietary and ongoing competitive advantage. So there have been obviously tools like Chat GPT that are out there that have woken up the world to the potential for ai and I think that’s great and obviously chat GPT will be behind the scenes for a lot of the AI revolution, but if your organization is using chat GPT as sort of the means to try to conduct this acceleration to insights, you’re using a publicly available tool with publicly available data and that is not a recipe for creating sustained competitive advantage in my opinion.

(06:41):

So this shift from projects to a full knowledge estate and the AI tools that you can apply to the data that only you have and no one else has access to completely separate from chat GBT, that’s really where this step change in value is going to happen. Larger organizations, especially enterprise companies, they have all this data, they’re starving for what they’re drowning in what, but they’re starving for why. And the reality is the answers have been there all along. They’re just hidden in your data and the studies that you’ve fielded in the past, the data you’ve collected and also the gaps that you can fill in with new research studies with AI is really kind of allowing that to come together and when you have the right tools, the right people, the right profits, the right partners, and you have that philosophy of what is this knowledge estate that’s building in value over time just like an investment, just like an index fund, those are the organizations that are really going to thrive structurally, I think we’re in the dying days of separate insights teams and analytics teams.

(07:55):

Those two worlds are crashing together and that’s actually going to be a really good thing once we get over some cultural issues of very different types of people. We’re working together towards the same answers. But when you bring that data together, you have ai, you have the ability for tools to proactively notify you of things that it knows that you care about and you don’t even know enough to ask the question, like the chat GPT model is to ask the question. The next sort of step beyond that is the tool knows the question that you would’ve asked and it brings you the insight and then allows you to go deeper and kind of play with it. That’s the equivalent of giving everyone in your organization a new direct report that has perfect knowledge of anything you’ve ever asked about any question with new inflows of all the data and studies that you’re collecting over time. So imagine you switched roles in a company. Normally it would take you 90 days to get up to speed, it could be nine minutes. And this is happening now. This is not like five years from now. Even some tools that we’re developing in-house as well as tools that we are exploring, bringing licensing and bringing in-house the combination of these things, we’re going to truly transform insights and how they’re practiced. That was the longest run on sentence.

Bill Gullan (09:16):

I was going to say. I demand equal time for Lauren, but no thanks John. And I think the notion of just say just one more thing if you wouldn’t mind about getting closer to the truth. I think your second point was you call it triangulating truth and how we get closer to actual truth than never before. How might technology bring that about?

John Fereirra (09:37):

Yeah, so research, it’s a bit of a dramatic statement, but you can kind of view all research as having some trace of a lie within it because truly understanding what people are thinking and feeling even at an individual level, let alone at a macro level across the country, across the world, is really incredibly difficult to do. This is why we stack methodologies, it’s why we do quant and that we do qual to try and get the emotional to try to get the rational maybe even combinations of those things if it’s an extremely important question. I know we’ll talk about Jaguar later, but there are certain topics where you want to layer multiple methodologies to get you closer to the truth and you never quite grasp it. It’s always a little bit out of your reach, but the more research you do, you get closer to having that within your grasp and these new AI tools combining all the behavioral data that you’re collecting, all the primary research you’re collecting, and when you bring in the right suite of tools and processes to keep that data fresh, it’s not enough to have the data. It’s got to keep coming in because the world keeps changing that is going to get organizations closer to the truth than ever before, which is going to drive better decisions than ever before, which is going to drive better customer experiences than ever before. And it’s going to be really a new and exciting era for insights and analytics coming together.

Lauren Collier (11:00):

Excellent. John one might say these are adaptive insights.

Bill Gullan (11:04):

Oh one might.

John Fereirra (11:05):

That would be a great way to frame that.

Bill Gullan (11:08):

Lauren A, I’m glad you’re still awake after John’s answer and B, we’re going to go to you next on this, which was his third point that I know you have been in the center of for us because it’s funny as technology adoption and even in small ways of working all the way up through some of the bigger ideas that John is expressing as those things have become more coveted, more possible and pretty soon dere within some of our client teams, we’ve also noticed in the last 12 months a significant uptick in the exact opposite end of the continuum, which is really immersive human experiences it seems like in everything in life. The middle is hollowing out, you see it in religious practice, you see it in politics, and so on one end John’s talking about step changes in technology innovation, but we’re also experiencing a renewed sort of rigor and vigor around the personal side of this on the extreme sort of intimate niche almost end of it. Could you speak to some of the things we’ve noticed and have been doing over the last year in those areas?

Lauren Collier (12:08):

Yeah, no one, John, you talked about transformational insights and the only way to make sure that they’re actually transformational is to make sure that they’re actually used within an organization. And when we think about, yes, tech is shaping a lot, but the power of in-person, it’s here to stay human connection experiences shape beliefs which drive action, which deliver results. What experiences can we create for clients, for brand teams, for all the stakeholders, everyone from product development through sales to marketing to operations to think through what are they hearing from their customers, from their consumers, to then shape the business objectives. We have really doubled down on in-person human-centric experiences that put consumers in different scenarios, not behind the glass where we’re sitting at a table but within senior care doing dialogues within food and beverage, going to grocery stores, sitting in a restaurant within financial services, sitting around a table together, looking at concepts where there’s no barrier between the client, the consumer us, the consumer to be able to touch it.

(13:17):

So we call that there’s different shop alongs. We have a bounce and build methodology. And the idea here is that we want to make sure we’re hearing from the consumers themselves in a real life setting, but not just us, we need the stakeholders to hear this so that it’s actually used within an organization because research is only as good as how it’s actually used and it can only deliver on that timeline ROI if it’s embraced in its use. So thinking through in-person human experiences, which will change the beliefs of all the different people in a cross-functional organization to then drive action will and ideally should yield results in a much faster way than ever before. So all of the same principles that we’re thinking about why tech and AI is so important are exactly the same reasons why in-person is important. We want speed to gathering those insights. We want to settle debates we want to use and make sure insights are building on each other. So bounce and build is a concept where it literally builds, you hear from one group and then you build onto that concept and then the next group bounces and you build. So a concept that you start with in the beginning of the day is different than the concept that you end with during that day. And all of it is designed to make people hear from people and to settle debates and move business decisions faster.

Bill Gullan (14:35):

And some of the things I know that we’ve all experienced with clients over the past couple of months, John, you talk about the methodological graveyard, some of these are really progressive, some of these are really traditional but powerful. I mean we were walking grocery store aisles with consumers as they shop, we’re in senior care facilities, hearing residents react to things in the moment we’re going to restaurants to share an ethnic meal with a group of consumers that we’ve recruited in and have them just talk about their embrace of these cultures and how they use certain products and acclimate to them. There is no AI can get as powerful as it ever has the potential to be in our mind’s eye, but it will never substitute for just the intimacy of that. And Elsie, one of the things that you highlighted as an important benefit or a co consequence of some of these methodologies, which is executives from our client teams experiencing those with us live and the power that has not only in insights getting through, but dare I say it, these folks may not be in front of consumers as much as they would like and bringing them back into really the front lines of the business if only for a day or a couple of hours probably has a tremendous clarifying effect for them in terms of seeing the world fresh.

Lauren Collier (15:49):

Yeah, I know you for example, had a few meals with CMO at a restaurant recently that was wonderful understanding it. And I think not every executive has the time to be able to join the research and we’re actually reporting in different ways as well. And we’re bringing the video equipment to be able to capture these moments. So again, what can we do to introduce the voices and put faces to names, faces to their consumers, actually make these people more than the demographics and more than the actual results within sales and make them, we want to see them, we want to touch ’em, we want to understand the emotional depth. So putting a face to them has allowed us to bring insight socialization to a whole new level where we’re doing more and more video share outs just so to maximize everybody in the organization to be a part of it. But the first goal is to join us for the research because what better way than to just open the door and whoever has a question, ask it, ask the consumer. You have access to them and it’s a really fantastic experience to drive efficiency and to change your belief and ultimately a new result.

Bill Gullan (16:53):

Yeah, totally. And John, we made fun of you a little bit because the shot clock expired on your last answer, but I know that one of the points you wanted to make was also about this sort of new golden age or renaissance of more traditional methodologies that have maybe even greater value in the current world. Anything you wanted to add to that

John Fereirra (17:11):

Even before that? Just one more point on in-person. I think AI is going to accelerate the importance of in-person research. Two reasons. One, people are going to get, it’s easy to get addicted to the data on the screen, but a lot of the answers that you need are a lot more complicated than that. So it’s going to play an increasingly important complimentary role as we are immersed in more and more data through these sophisticated AI systems. And the other aspect of that is totally lost my train of thought actually.

Bill Gullan (17:46):

Well that was really profound.

Lauren Collier (17:47):

AI may help you that in the future.

Bill Gullan (17:50):

Yeah, ask Jeff UBT to get you back on track. I think you were going to speak to some of the methodologies that have had power but now have sort of extra power as we enter this world with tech enablement. I know we’ve talked a lot internally about insights communities for example, as one in addition to some of the in-person methodologies that lc was talking about.

John Fereirra (18:15):

Oh, I know what my second point was, sorry. The best organizations are going to be the ones that stop fielding dumb research

(18:23):

And AI is going to allow you to stop fielding dumb research. What do I mean by dumb? Like researching something that you’ve researched already 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 times in the past. You already have the answers, you just don’t know it because you rotated into a new seat in an organization and your predecessor or your predecessor’s predecessor got those answers. The world’s always changing, but there are some timeless answers to timeless questions and AI is going to allow you to definitively have those in place so you can spend more time focused on higher impact, more strategic research that is really going to move the needle and make a difference. And oftentimes I think that’s going to be in person research on the point of insights communities.

(19:06):

That is a methodology that for years had gotten very stale here at Finch. We spent a lot of time thinking about how to sort of reinvigorate and revolutionize how that is conducted. But in an era where you have these powerful AI systems that are centralizing all this data together to give you better answers, sort of multipolar answers to sophisticated questions, you need to feed that engine. You need to constantly be giving it fresh data and fresh insight. And there is no methodology on earth in primary research that does a better job than giving you a steady conveyor belt of rational and emotional insight into your target audience’s needs on a year round basis than insights communities. It just didn’t use to be the case. But now there’s incredible methodological diversity, a broad suite of research tools if you’re with the right partner, there are even new AI driven methodologies that never existed before a year ago, things that were not possible that are now possible now such as AI driven conversational chats that sort of exist between live qual and surveys and give you qualitative insight at scale in a ways that a survey can’t do or even in-person research can’t do.

(20:18):

So insights communities, it’s more important than it ever has been to have one, at least one. You might want more than one if you’re serving different markets and different target audiences. Having the right partner with the right technology to continue to feed the right data into your AI models is where your proprietary advantage is going to come from.

Bill Gullan (20:38):

One of the things that we like to say at Finch and our work has accelerated on this in the last 12 months is that the best brands are built inside out. We’ve talked a lot in the first part of this episode about the consumer and understanding how they see and experience the world commercially and otherwise. What about teammates in large organizations in an era of hybrid work or remote work in an era of omnichannel consumer behavior, what do trends or some of these forces enable us to do? On the employee research side, which we’ve been doing a lot of or just as it relates to best brands being built inside out and how inspired and educated and engaged teammates are the ones who create exceptional customer experiences. Who wants to start?

Lauren Collier (21:32):

I’ll start. I think culture and everything that when we say the best brands are built from the inside audits really when the company’s sense of purpose aligns with the individual sense of purpose and that they’re really getting it and that they’re understanding target consumers, audiences and really getting deeper. And by the way, in order for AI to be really successful, we have to get smarter with everything that we know and the optimal consumer experience and the optimal employee experience occurs at the intersection of really listening to our consumers and listening to our employees. So we started talking about all the different ways that AI will help us get smarter from a consumer standpoint and all of the in-person research as a way to get smarter and get closer to the consumer, but you can’t ignore the role the employee plays in delivering that brand experience as well.

(22:26):

So whether it’s store associates, the office staff, whoever it is, everybody needs to have a voice in really driving that and we need to create methodologies to really get closer to the employees and understand how do they view our future? Do they see us as holding steady on the rise? What perception do they have? And then what role does the purpose and the mission and the values really have in that foundation because the best companies are built from that foundation and branding comes after that foundation of purpose and mission and values. So there’s a lot of work to be done from an employee standpoint to not only deliver for the consumer experience but to really solidify the foundation for the brand and the business as well.

Bill Gullan (23:11):

Definitely. And employees to your point, are central to the actualization of a corporate purpose and system of belief. They’re also depending on the distribution channels, but they in retail and beyond tend to be really effective messengers back of what’s happening in the marketplace, how consumers are interacting with stores, with products, with marketing effectiveness. They can be canaries in the coal mine for lack of a better phrase. Also on the insight side. John, any ways in which you’ve been thinking or we’ve been putting into practice this philosophy of the importance of the employee experience?

John Fereirra (23:52):

Yeah, I think there are different ways that you can use it. So from an employee experience perspective, I mean there are more stressors stresses on employees than there have ever been in my opinion. So new changes from new and people don’t like change, humans don’t like change. There’s more change going on out there. It’s affecting them, it’s affecting the customers they’re serving, it’s affecting their jobs. For all the positives of AI that we talked about earlier, people are worried about this. I see this at trade shows, how’s it going to affect my job? Could AI take my job in the future? Is the company going to need as many employees as it does today? And that can be corrosive when they’re unknowns. And that’s just one example like the return to work from hybrid. You can see civil wars going on within organizations coast to coast around people being mandated to come back in the office and then just quiet quitting or just they’re kind of mailing it in. Their engagement level goes down and people pretending to punch into buildings and then to monitor the timestamps. There’s so much pressure on it and like lc saying, the best brands are built for the inside out. You really need to be vigilant and diligent about listening to the voice of your employees to understand where are they at, where is their head at? And an annual engagement survey doesn’t cut it anymore.

(25:19):

The world’s changing too fast. You need to not just be checking the temperature. That’s like a thermometer. You can see if the patient’s sick, but don’t you want to know ahead of time? Don’t you want to take a preventative approach to this and go deeper into it? So employee engagement is one application. Another is the frontline style community like you talked about. We’ve done that for clients as well where there’s an incredible, your frontline employees are an incredible source of intelligence around what’s actually going on in the marketplace, talking to people every day. And if you can decrease the distance between the frontline and the back office, that’s going to help you to make much better decisions. You can figure out is strategy even correctly getting translated down into execution? Are there things that HQ isn’t aware of that prevent that from happening in the real world? Are the strategies that you kind of lab tested within research actually working in the real world? What if you can learn that 10% faster, 20% faster, faster, 50% faster to refine it, improve training, make better decisions, have better communication elements, all these different things are incredibly valuable and we’re seeing that demand more and more from across our client base around employee communities for frontline as well.

Bill Gullan (26:29):

Yeah, definitely. And those have been really fun to work on because it’s very rich and meaningful stuff.

John Fereirra (26:37):

Even the act of listening them knowing that you have one and that you care enough about them to stay tuned into their world, to give them a chance to provide feedback to impact strategy and better equip them to do what you’re asking them to do sends a hugely powerful signal in an organization that gets back to that best brands are built from the inside out sort of

Bill Gullan (26:59):

Philosophy. Definitely. And in that spirit, let’s move to the holiday gift portion of the program, which is our final topic everybody seems to have with social media and everything else. There are big brand topics that kind of break through that everybody seems to be talking about. The most recent one is Jaguar or Jaguar I guess as they used to be pronounce it. And I thought since we have two of the smartest brand consultants that I know here with me that it is not our style at Finch to weigh in half cocked on just any sort of old piece of consumer news. But again, since it’s holiday time and you guys are already here, let’s talk about Jaguar just to sort of set the scene for those who may not have seen it, and forgive me if I misquote anything. Basically what we’re reacting to is a kind of a teaser, almost sizzle piece of video that Jaguar put forth that had sort of really bright, colorful androgynous models and didn’t have vehicles but had sort of hyping a new brand direction.

(28:06):

They introduced within it a new font choice, a new sort of rendering of the Jaguar itself in the logo. And accompanying that there seemed to be a story that suggested a significant pivot for the brand business-wise. We know Jaguar US and maybe worldwide was down precipitously from a financial perspective. And what seems to be the case is that Jaguar strategy involves a significant edit down of the vehicle assortment, a significant embrace of EVs as the core of the future of the brand. And so then this teaser campaign came out and everybody all over the place is sharing their opinion about Jaguar and understanding that we’re not in possession of the insights that they may have collected that led to this. Just want to get your take on it as professionals, but also just as consumers and folks who live in the world. Elsie, let’s start with you. What was your reaction? Everybody’s talking about this.

Lauren Collier (29:03):

It’s interesting. I think reflecting this started two weeks ago, I think when it right, and now we’re sitting here two weeks later and the car has been revealed and there’s been this big brand launch video that played in Miami this week as well. And so all the pieces are starting to come together and I think the one thing I can confidently say is that Jaguar has never been talked about more with this kind of audience than it ever has been. So kudos because they’re making themselves relevant by going bold. I think what I would like to reflect on is I’m not sure bold is a strategic choice. I think it’s interesting. I like where they’re going. They clearly are surrounding this brand refresh with a product evolution by going completely electronic and doing this in a very different way. I would hope the insights talked about maybe low awareness in the younger audience for example, because they’ve walked away from some really key powerful heritage elements within their brand.

(30:07):

And so that’s one thing I would assume that maybe their insights sold them. So it’s really more of a launch than it is a refresh from that standpoint. And so if you think about launching a luxury brand in today’s ever-changing automotive market that has a lot of noise, a lot of brands, it is standing out and so it’s certainly doing its job there. I think the one risk is what power and how does this connect to the original Jaguar lovers and how do they feel about this? And maybe that doesn’t matter and maybe that’s a business choice and a business risk that they’re willing to take to walk away from. So a brand that has such heritage and such credibility and such a traditional following, they’ve totally swung the pendulum and really potentially alienated that historical audience. And I don’t know if it’s necessary to win with that audience and to gain new, A lot of times when you do brand stretch, you want to try to maintain your base and stretch further. In this instance, I don’t know the insights that support this, but the risk to me is losing the old to get the new. But I think the market opportunity is bigger with the new

Bill Gullan (31:25):

And not a lot of old world British luxury

Lauren Collier (31:27):

In

Bill Gullan (31:27):

What we’ve seen as

Lauren Collier (31:29):

It is a very different vibe. There’s some analysis that says it’s keeping to it. I’m far enough away from it that I don’t necessarily see that, but I guess if you’re totally in the know, maybe you are picking up on some of that.

Bill Gullan (31:43):

Yeah, perhaps. John, what was your take either on just sort of what we saw as consumers or as befitting Lauren’s answer, thinking maybe what they were reacting to, they may have led them in this direction that seems pretty distinct from where they’ve historically been and maybe with good reason.

John Fereirra (32:02):

To me, it’s hard to critique the decision without knowing what answers they have, right? If they’re weighing it, it’s incredibly dangerous to do with a storied and legendary brand that would’ve had many avenues to revitalize it. With things like nostalgia, I mean I’ve lost count of the number of categories where 20 to 25 year olds and even 25 to 30 year olds, our nostalgia is one of the most powerful elements that you can activate. That’s why Gen Z is obsessed with nineties music.

Bill Gullan (32:40):

By the way, for the record, considering nineties nostalgia does not make me feel young.

John Fereirra (32:46):

I remember I went into a bar last summer and the Cranberries Zombie came on with a cover band and I’m like most of the other people in the bar in their twenties and I’m like, do they told their target on? He’s like, nobody’s going to like this song. Not only that, the place went nuts. It’s on an old station, went nuts.

Lauren Collier (33:03):

My 12-year-old nephew is currently performing that song.

John Fereirra (33:06):

Oh my god. People knew every single word to the song and we’re chanting it in unison and it just blew my mind. So nostalgia could have been an alternative strategy. There’s probably a whole game board of alternative strategies they could have followed. I hope they’re not winging it for their sake because

Bill Gullan (33:23):

Agree. And I also agree with your reticence. We do not criticize other practitioners lightly and it’s likely that we don’t know, but it’s likely that there was a process that led up to this that included strategic alternatives and that they settled on this and it wasn’t a half cocked winging it, as you say.

Lauren Collier (33:44):

I think to connect the insights conversation to the Jaguar conversation, I think one of the things that we are very diligent about is making sure the insight clearly maps to the strategy. And so when you hear all of us talking about this, we’re kind of assuming what maybe the insights said to lead them to a certain

Bill Gullan (34:06):

Path. Yeah, definitely.

John Fereirra (34:09):

The first thing I hope they did was segment their market and be really clear about who they’re trying to appeal to. It looks like maybe that was done. Sometimes agencies sort of come in at the end and

Lauren Collier (34:20):

This was in-house.

John Fereirra (34:22):

Oh, okay. So they would’ve had control over that component. And then were product design positioning and communications integrated in a real coherent way? Did they take the time to deeply understand the needs of the target market, the interests of the target market? Did they take the time to try to identify specific perceptual white space that their brand could occupy that other high-end cars and EVs don’t currently occupy? Is this actually a unique place? It seems like they’re coming off pretty unique. How big is that demand space? I don’t know, but hopefully they do. And then really all along the way from understanding fundamental needs, frustrations, pain points, aspirations, this looks like it has some element of wanting to be an aspirational brand. So what are these people trying to say about themselves that they’re targeting and how can Jaguar help them say it in a way that’s going to make sense down through testing the positioning and communications.

(35:29):

It’s amazing how many companies will speed through communications testing or not do it at all. I would imagine with this big of a bet, they must have done it, but qualitative and quantitative exploration from the idea stage, even before you get into animatic, before you get into certainly production, if you’re making a big bet on this, you really want to test that thoroughly to make sure it’s going to land. Because with a bet this big, going to de-risk it from every angle you can. And I’m one to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have probably done the research and have a better idea of how this is going to result in the marketplace than we might.

Bill Gullan (36:10):

Well, it’s going to be fascinating. I mean EV demand has slowed considerably. The current political dynamics suggests the possibility that the subsidy will go away in the short term, which challenges the financial case, the other kind of affordable luxury brands, European, American, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, et cetera, Lexus have been eating Jaguar’s, range Rover have been eating Jaguar’s lunch, the sort of premium price point brand that is accessible that has been cleaning up and is really sort of the most associated with EV brand and the others have EV models. But Tesla obviously is a bit of a football at the moment given the prominence of its founder and it has a very different design story and brand aesthetic than what Jaguar is seeming to put forth. So I mean, wow, it’s a fascinating set of dynamics and questions. Probably not targeted at me, but that’s okay. Very few brands are. So any other final thoughts before we adjourn? I so appreciate you guys hopping on and giving your thoughts on everything we’ve seen and what the future might hold.

Lauren Collier (37:42):

I think 2024 has been a great year where we’re balancing tech and in-person and realizing both are here to stay. I think we also believe that the importance of culture and how insights and strategy can actually play an important role in that culture. And I think a lot of what 2025 is really just about keeping things transparent, authentic, and really keeping it real.

Bill Gullan (38:08):

Yep. John, final thoughts.

John Fereirra (38:13):

The future is arriving faster than you think. So make sure you have the right partners so you’re positioned well to ride that wave before everyone else either rides it or gets crushed by it.

Bill Gullan (38:28):

Excellent. That’s a perfect way to end. Lauren and John, thank you for your time. Thanks

Lauren Collier (38:33):

For having us.

Bill Gullan (38:34):

Of course, in your insight, we may have to do this again once a year or maybe more frequent in 25. I’m sure that our listenership will demand time with Lauren and John. As always, three ways to support us here at Champions of Purposeful Change. We have been pretty good about our timelines, sticking on it monthly, mostly with interviews with either clients or friends or others that we admire in this space. And three ways to support us. One, get into that podcast app of your choice and click subscribe. That’ll make sure you do not miss an episode. We are monthly, although it’s not a perfect 30 days, it tends to be one a month. And so by clicking subscribe, you’ll make sure you do not miss an episode. It will magically float down once released into that podcast app of your choice. Secondly, in there rate and review, it gives us helpful feedback and we are told that it also helps us get found by others who would appreciate this content.

(39:31):

And then thirdly, let’s keep the dialogue going on XI guess we call it today at Bill Golin, at Finch Brands or any other method. Give us thoughts on feedback on what we’ve done well or not well, as well as ideas for future topics or future guests. We’d love to hear from listeners and we have very thick skin and we also are, I think hopefully we’ve exhibited willing to pivot where necessary to make sure that this is maximally valuable to those who spend a few minutes with us every month to listen. And so thank you for listening. Go ahead.

John Fereirra (40:04):

John would be Higher Finch brands so we can increase the production value of this podcast.

Bill Gullan (40:09):

How could this production value be any better than it is? It’s no one’s full-time job, but we do the best we can and with wishes for Happy Holidays to you and yours professionally and personally, we will sign off from the Cradle of Liberty.